Bahai News -- The Hutton Inquiry Transcripts
The Hutton Inquiry
Transcripts of Mrs Kelly's Testimony
1 Monday, 1st September 2003
2 (10.30 am)
3 MRS JANICE KELLY (called)
4 Examined by MR DINGEMANS
5 LORD HUTTON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Now
6 Mr Dingemans, you are asking Mrs Kelly to give evidence
7 this morning.
8 MR DINGEMANS: My Lord, yes.
9 LORD HUTTON: Good morning Mrs Kelly. As I think you know,
10 Mr Dingemans will take you through your evidence and if
11 at any time you would like a break, please just say so.
12 A. Thank you, my Lord.
13 MR DINGEMANS: Mrs Kelly, I hope you can see me. We can see
14 a still picture of you. Can you hear me clearly?
15 A. I can see you and hear you.
16 Q. You married Dr Kelly in 1967?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Where had you met?
19 A. We had met when he was at Leeds University. I was
20 studying at Birmingham Training College at the time
21 before I moved on to Birmingham University.
22 Q. Mrs Kelly, you will need to keep your voice up a wee
23 bit, if that is all right.
24 A. That is fine.
25 Q. After university, what had he gone on to do?
1 A. He went on to do an MSc. He was then able to join me at
2 Birmingham University for one year there.
3 Q. Were you doing postgraduate work there?
4 A. I was doing my first degree.
5 Q. He was doing postgraduate work?
6 A. He was doing his second degree.
7 Q. What did he do after Birmingham?
8 A. After Birmingham he went on to do a Doctorate at Oxford
10 Q. Do you know what that was in?
11 A. Not entirely. It was something to do with viruses and
12 insect viruses.
13 Q. After he had finished his Doctorate, where did he work?
14 A. He then went on to do a post-doc fellowship at Warwick
15 University for three years and then went back to Oxford,
16 by invitation, to work back at the then Institute of
18 Q. Where were you living at that time?
19 A. We were living at that time at Eynsham.
20 Q. Near Oxford?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. Were you working at the time?
23 A. I was, I was a teacher.
24 Q. And when did you move to Kingston Bagpuize?
25 A. In 1974.
1 Q. What was his work at that time?
2 A. At that time, he was working in the NERC, Institute of
4 Q. Do you know what he was doing there?
5 A. He was doing a great deal of science. Terribly sorry,
6 I do not know the details of what he was doing, but he
7 was involved in a lot of laboratory work and in teaching
8 and training other people.
9 Q. Did there come a time when he moved on to Porton Down?
10 A. Yes, about 1984 by invitation he went to Porton Down.
11 Q. Do you know what he was doing in broad outline?
12 A. Yes, he led a department of microbiology there and set
13 it up in a much bigger -- as a much bigger set-up than
14 it was initially. He took quite a number of people with
15 him from Oxford to do that.
16 Q. Where is Porton Down in the country?
17 A. That is near Salisbury.
18 Q. He would drive down to Salisbury?
19 A. We had intended to move but could not find anywhere
20 suitable. At that time we lived in a rather nice house
21 in Kingston Bagpuize so we decided to stay, so he
22 travelled 50 miles each way each day. Sometimes he
23 would stay down in the officers' mess.
24 Q. And did at any time he move into weapons monitoring?
25 A. Yes, towards the end of the 1980s, about 1987 I think,
1 he was involved in some work in Russia where he seemed
2 to establish quite a good reputation and was asked back
3 several times.
4 Q. Do you know what he was doing in Russia?
5 A. He certainly interrogated a defector at some point, but
6 it was weapons monitoring.
7 Q. How long was he away? For months at a time?
8 A. Weeks at a time, anything up to three weeks, generally
9 shorter than that.
10 Q. Did he talk about his work in Russia?
11 A. In general terms he felt it was really very exciting
12 work. This was the beginning of the time when he began
13 to become extremely dedicated to his work. He became
14 more of -- what shall I say -- a workaholic than he had
15 before. He really did get involved in that.
16 Q. He seemed to enjoy it?
17 A. Very much so.
18 Q. After his work in Russia, do you know where he moved on
19 to then?
20 A. He was asked to get involved in the UNSCOM,
21 United Nations Special Commission on Iraq and then spent
22 a lot of time going out to the UN headquarters in
23 New York.
24 Q. Was this before or after the first Gulf War?
25 A. That was just after the first Gulf War I believe.
1 Q. Did he spend quite a lot of time in Iraq?
2 A. Yes, he did. He went there nearly 40 times altogether,
3 anything up to three weeks at a time.
4 Q. These were three-week stretches?
5 A. Generally, yes. Generally not anything more.
6 Q. At this stage, were you aware about any press contacts
7 he might have had?
8 A. Yes, indeed. In fact he had been on a TV training
9 course paid by his employers, which required to give
10 press briefings over quite a long period of time both
11 formally and informally.
12 Q. When he was at home was he ever contacted by members of
13 the press?
14 A. Yes, frequently. Yes.
15 Q. And did you ever hear any of those conversations?
16 A. Only in general terms. Sometimes I could hear him
17 saying: well, I need to check with the Foreign Office,
18 or whatever, first, or sometimes he would say: I am not
19 able to talk on that particular topic, I can give you
20 some background. He was never very long on the phone
21 with these journalists.
22 Q. And you say he became more and more interested in his
24 A. Yes, much more involved.
25 Q. How did he keep in contact with work when he was at
2 A. Mostly by telephone -- yes, by telephone. It was before
3 the days, then, of computers.
4 Q. And before mobile telephones?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. And we have heard that in 1988 the UNSCOM inspectors
7 were removed from Iraq.
8 A. Indeed.
9 Q. Was that the last time, so far as you know, before the
10 end of the second Gulf War that your husband went out to
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. And what was his view on that? Did he speak to you at
14 all about that?
15 A. Yes, he felt that his job there was not finished, that
16 Iraq did indeed have plenty of weapons to discuss and to
17 reveal. It was quite a frustrating time I think after
18 1988 when they were effectively thrown out of Iraq and
19 he was not able to continue there. But he did do quite
20 a lot of background work still. He still carried on
21 working in that field.
22 Q. And it seems at about that time that he had started
23 working more directly for the Ministry of Defence. Were
24 you aware of that?
25 A. Yes. I was never quite aware of who he worked for.
1 Since we had three children under the age of 2, he had
2 taken over the family finances, so where all the inputs
3 came from into our family income I was not terribly
4 sure. It was always a bit unclear as to who he was
5 working for. I had the impression he sometimes was
6 invited to give talks and what have you and be paid
7 separately. Sometimes he would be paid for some things
8 by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and sometimes by
9 the United Nations. So there was a secondment in there
10 somewhere, but I was never always terribly sure where
11 that was.
12 Q. We have seen some of the correspondence he has written
13 about whether his job had been lost in the command
14 structure somewhere.
15 A. Indeed, indeed.
16 Q. Were you aware of any feelings he had on that?
17 A. Yes, he did; he was quite frustrated about that in a way
18 because it was a kind of I think the press called it
19 a hole. To some extent it was. He was content in some
20 ways, and I think he would have done the whole job for
21 nothing had he not had to support a wife and family,
22 but, yes, it was a bit frustrating for him. It had to
23 be dealt with every now and again. But he was so busy
24 that very often he could not check on his new income
1 Q. We have heard at some time Dr Kelly became a member of
2 the Baha'i faith. Do you know anything about that?
3 A. Only a little. He kept it very privately to himself.
4 It was a few years ago, perhaps five or six years ago,
5 when I realised he was reading the Koran and he was
6 becoming perhaps gentler in his ways, in some ways. It
7 really was a spiritual revelation for him. He read
8 widely on the subject and met a number of people.
9 I think there was one interpreter, Mike Peddison, who in
10 fact later became a family friend, who was quite
11 influential there. He certainly went to a number of
12 meetings in our own local area too until about two years
13 ago and then that dropped off somewhat.
14 Q. It dropped off about two years ago?
15 A. Yes, in terms of meetings. His faith did not drop off.
16 Right to the very end that was important to him,
17 I believe.
18 Q. Do you know why it dropped off?
19 A. I think the prayer meeting structure in the local area
20 changed from being larger groups right down to twos or
21 threes. He found that less comforting and less
23 Q. Do you know whether or not, from January/February
24 time -- you were having your daughter's wedding, I think
25 your daughter's wedding was in February. How was his
1 mood in January time?
2 A. In January time he was a little more tired than he had
3 been. It was fine. He was looking forward to our
4 daughter's wedding and looking forward to the year. He
5 had some trepidation though about the war coming up. He
6 believed in it but was obviously sad that we seemed to
7 be moving towards that position.
8 Q. And had he talked about his retirement, at that stage?
9 A. Yes, but only in general terms. Later on he gave a date
10 to it. At that stage he was thinking perhaps of 2005.
11 He was a little bit worried about his pension
12 requirements there and we still had a mortgage to pay on
13 the house, so he was going to leave it as late as he
15 Q. Then you have your daughter's wedding in February?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. After that he seems to have gone back off to America; is
18 that right?
19 A. That is right, he did, the day after.
20 Q. And do you know what he was doing work-wise then?
21 A. He was working at the United Nations. I think he was
22 supporting one of the commissioners there, I am not
24 Q. And he returned -- do you remember when?
25 A. He returned a few days later. I am not sure. My own
1 diary, I am afraid, is lost. I am using a mid year
2 diary so I do not have reference to my own diary at that
4 Q. Then we come on to May time. Where was he in May? Do
5 you recall?
6 A. He went to the Middle East twice, I think, in May. Once
7 to Kuwait and then he came back to sort out a visa and
8 then went back to Baghdad, although -- actually it was
9 a little later in June I believe. Yes, he was backwards
10 and forwards from New York.
11 Q. We have a document that you very kindly produced in May.
12 Can I show it to you? It is FAM/5/1. I think we are
13 going to lose your picture and see the document. Can
14 you tell me a bit about where you found this document?
15 A. I am still waiting to see it.
16 Q. Okay. So are we. We have now lost you. I think we are
17 going to get something on the screen. I hope you get
18 the same -- we are not going to get anything on the
19 screen so we will have your picture back, if we may.
20 It is a document that has been produced which is
21 dated 9th May. Can you tell us where you found that?
22 A. Can you give me a bit more information about it?
23 Q. It is from Eric Mattey, Honour's Secretary, dated
24 9th May 2003.
25 A. Is this the one where it was scribbled at the top
1 left-hand corner?
2 Q. Yes, there is some writing in the top right-hand corner
3 A. This is something we found in his filing cabinet
4 a couple of weeks ago or so. It was headed -- this was
5 a trawl for people to be on the New Year's Honours List.
6 Q. In 2004?
7 A. And scribbled in the top left-hand corner was:
8 "How about David Kelly? Iraq is topical."
9 Q. Iraq being topical in handwriting. The note appears to
10 be dated 14th May.
11 A. That is right.
12 Q. You found that, where do you say?
13 A. In his filing cabinet. There were a few files left
14 after the police had been and taken what they needed.
15 Q. And did he discuss that with you at all?
16 A. No, he had not mentioned that. It was headed
18 Q. Right.
19 LORD HUTTON: Mrs Kelly, what was the honour suggested?
20 A. I do not believe there was an honour suggested. He had
21 already got a CMG in 1996. So it might well have been
22 a knighthood, I really do not know.
23 LORD HUTTON: I see. Thank you very much.
24 MR DINGEMANS: Can I ask you a bit about Dr Kelly's travel?
25 He seems to have travelled fairly extensively. We have
1 heard that from other witnesses and we have seen parts
2 of his diaries. Is that a fair impression?
3 A. Oh indeed, yes. It was not an easy thing to live with
4 in many ways. He would travel and say: I am going away
5 for a week on Tuesday 4th, I will be back on Monday 11th
6 or whatever and then that would change. It often
7 changed two or three times and the length of stay would
8 change too. Yes, he was travelling quite regularly.
9 Q. Did he try to travel over weekends or anything?
10 A. Yes, he did. He kept his travel to the weekends so he
11 could use the full week for working. So he would often
12 arrive back either fairly early on Sunday morning or
13 Monday morning. Usually on a Sunday morning at
14 breakfast time, then rest for a few hours before he
15 prepared for the next day.
16 Q. We have also heard a bit about his holiday. It appears
17 he took some holiday time in August 2002, finishing very
18 early September 2002.
19 A. He did.
20 Q. Part of that time he appears to have been working in
21 New York.
22 A. Yes, that is right.
23 Q. Do you know anything about that?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. And did he take any other holiday time, so far as you
1 are aware?
2 A. No, he was not good at holidays. He was always on call.
3 He always had his mobile phone on and he took a minimum
4 amount of time. He would try to slot in his gardening
5 duties, mowing the lawns and so on between work, either
6 in the evening or very occasionally he would take a day
7 in lieu.
8 Q. Did he have a weekend earlier on this year?
9 A. Yes, he did. Our field and the lawns had got very, very
10 long and he seemed to be driven. He really had to spend
11 a long time doing that and he was extremely tired
12 afterwards. We have a very old, battered ride-on mower
13 and that was a seven hour job, and he made himself stick
14 at it all day with just breaks for water and food. He
15 was extremely tired. This was fitted in tightly between
16 two visits.
17 Q. Also in May we have heard that he met Mr Gilligan, on
18 22nd May.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you aware of that meeting?
21 A. Yes, I was. He just said that he was meeting him in
22 London, which was unusual for him to go and meet
23 somebody in London. He was up there anyway. I just
24 recognised the name from somewhere, I am not quite sure
1 Q. But he did not tell you the nature of the meeting?
2 A. No, he would never tell me the nature of his meetings.
3 Generally it was for briefings. I think Andrew Gilligan
4 was going into and then coming out of Baghdad and he was
5 being briefed by Andrew Gilligan, basically.
6 Q. At the end of June we know that Dr Kelly wrote a letter
7 to Dr Wells. Were you aware of that at the time?
8 A. Not at the time, no. The only thing I was aware of was
9 that he became very much more taciturn. He became more
10 difficult to talk to, he became more tense, withdrawn
11 and we as a family expressed this worry to each other,
12 we each noticed it.
13 Q. When can you date that from, if you can?
14 A. The last week of June, I would think. We were worried
15 about him before then. He seemed to be under a little
16 bit of strain in terms of travelling. He was tired and
17 looking his age. He seemed to have aged quite a bit.
18 It is that last week in June particularly when we really
19 noticed a great deal of change in him.
20 Q. We also know between 5th and 11th June he went out to
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. How was he before he went out?
24 A. Before he went out he was really glad to be going. He
25 was slightly nervous of what he might find there. He
1 knew it was an occupied country and he would be staying
2 in some very uncomfortable conditions. He had not been
3 out for a number of years. I think he had begun to
4 realise he had aged a little bit since he was last there
5 in 1998. So a little bit of trepidation.
6 Q. After his return, had he enjoyed his trip?
7 A. Yes and no. He came back with mixed feelings. So much
8 had changed, he was quite sad for the Iraqis. He did
9 not actually meet any of them while he was over there.
10 He was very much impounded within a presidential palace,
11 along with some US military people. He was sleeping on
12 a floor with no electricity, stagnant water from the
13 lakes outside, 40-degrees plus. It was very difficult
14 for him from a physical point of view. He was glad he
15 was involved. He had had difficulty trying to get back
16 there in a way. I got the feeling that he wanted to go
17 back many weeks before and there had been various
18 hold-ups in that.
19 Q. We know one of the hold ups was the visa problems in
20 Kuwait. Were you aware of any other hold ups?
21 A. Just changes of date.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. Constant changes of date.
24 Q. Now, after he had returned from Iraq, did he stay in
25 this country?
1 A. No. Within two or three days he had gone off to
2 Baltimore where --
3 Q. Do you know what he was doing there?
4 A. I think he was giving a speech at Johns Hopkins
6 Q. Do you know what the speech was about?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When did he return from that?
9 A. I am not absolutely certain. About 20th June.
10 Q. Right. And he then had some time off?
11 A. Yes, he spent a day, I think I mentioned to you, the
12 seven hours in the paddock I think was at that
13 particular time. The second time that year in fact when
14 he had spent quite a long time trying to get the garden
15 sorted out. Because I am disabled, I am not able to do
16 that myself, so he was trying to do that before he went
17 away again.
18 Q. He went away after he had returned from Baltimore?
19 A. I am not sure immediately, but later on he went on some
20 courses, but that was a little bit later. He was in
21 London quite a lot at that stage, backwards and
23 Q. Right. And was there anything that you noticed at the
24 end of June, any long walks or anything?
25 A. Yes, yes. He worried me somewhat one day, one evening,
1 by suddenly getting up from his chair one evening,
2 having been quite withdrawn and worried I think, and he
3 went upstairs to dress, change his clothes. He came
4 down looking rather smarter than he would normally be at
5 home, rather smarter than he would normally be if he
6 were just popping down to the local pub for a game of
7 crib or something like that. He said he was going to
8 walk to the Hind's Head at the other end of the village
9 and off he went, seeming very preoccupied. That again
10 would have been just before that letter was sent. About
11 half an hour or 40 minutes later he came back and
12 I said: You have been quick. You cannot walk there and
13 back in that time, and he replied: I went for a walk
14 instead to think something through.
15 I was immediately worried, the way he said it. He
16 said it slowly. I immediately thought perhaps he was
17 worrying about me or something. So he said: no, no, it
18 is not you, it is a professional thing. I said: do you
19 want to talk about it? He said no. I remember that
20 because I was actually quite worried about him at this
21 time and I was really getting quite anxious.
22 Q. You say Dr Kelly was walking off to the pub. Did he
23 drink at this time?
24 A. No, he had given up alcohol completely on becoming
25 a Baha'i some years previously. He had only ever had
1 a pint a night or something like that, or a pint every
2 other night or twice a week.
3 Q. How was his overall condition? Was he losing weight or
4 gaining weight?
5 A. Other people have suggested he was losing weight. I did
6 not notice that particularly, but I think he was. He
7 certainly looked worried. He looked just very
8 withdrawn. He was coping physically overall reasonably
10 Q. That brings us, I think, to 4th July. We know from
11 documents we have seen that Dr Kelly was interviewed on
12 4th July about the letter he had written on 30th June.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Did you know about that at the time?
15 A. No, I was totally unaware of anything other than the
16 feeling that he was not enjoying his work so much, that
17 he was more withdrawn. He was more driven in the things
18 he was doing in his leisure time at home. But that is
19 all I noticed.
20 Q. And then we know that he went off to RAF Honnington.
21 A. Indeed he did.
22 Q. For 7th and 8th July.
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. Do you know when he set off to RAF Honnington?
25 A. He set off on the morning of the -- was it the morning
1 or the evening before? He set off in the car, unusual
2 for him. He was worried about getting there in time and
3 so on.
4 Q. That was on the Sunday?
5 A. On the Sunday, yes, that must have been right.
6 Q. Did he talk to you from RAF Honnington at all?
7 A. Yes. Having got there, I had expected him to be away
8 for two days. He rang me. He was on a train going to
9 London for an interview. He did not say what that
10 interview was about. He did not sound unduly odd about
11 that and I did not pick up any kind of stress factor
12 from him at all. I did not assume anything other than
13 it was yet one more change of plan that was quite normal
14 with him.
15 Q. Right. Did he go back to RAF Honnington or did he come
16 back via Oxford way?
17 A. He had warned me he might come back that evening. In
18 the event, he actually went back and rejoined the
19 course. He was able to catch up with everybody else and
20 continue and then complete the course he was on.
21 Q. So he was travelling back home then on the Tuesday
22 8th July, is that right?
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. Do you know what time he got home?
25 A. About 7 o'clock, I think.
1 Q. Right. And how did he seem then?
2 A. Quiet. I was busy. I was busy interviewing some people
3 for my local History Society. So I did not actually
4 talk to him for long at that immediate point on his
5 return. It was a little bit later we spoke.
6 Q. When you spoke a little bit later, what was said?
7 A. Well, we had a meal and then we went in to sit and watch
8 the news. He seemed a little bit reluctant to come and
9 watch the news. The main story was a source had
10 identified itself. Immediately David said to me "it's
12 Q. The story, we have seen a press statement that was put
13 out by the Ministry of Defence on 8th July, was that the
14 story that was on the television?
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. And which channel were you watching, do you recall?
17 A. I am not sure. I think it was probably Channel 4, I am
18 not sure.
19 Q. Dr Kelly said to you "it's me"?
20 A. "It's me". My reaction was total dismay. My heart
21 sank. I was terribly worried because the fact that he
22 had said that to me, I knew then he was aware his name
23 would be in the public domain quite soon. He confirmed
24 that feeling of course.
25 Q. How did he seem to you?
1 A. Desperately unhappy about it, really really unhappy
2 about it. Totally dismayed. He mentioned he had had
3 a reprimand at that stage from the MoD but they had not
4 been unsupportive, were his words. We talked a little
5 bit generally about it and what it would mean for him in
6 real terms. He was a bit backward in coming forward,
7 may I say, in saying what he meant. I deliberately at
8 that point said: would it mean a pension problem, would
9 it mean you having to leave your job? He said it could
10 be if it got worse, yes.
11 Q. So he mentioned he had had a reprimand and you said
12 something about supportive -- what had he said to you?
13 A. That the MoD had not been unsupportive.
14 Q. They had not been unsupportive?
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. And what was his reaction to the fact that he thought
17 his name was going to become public?
18 A. Total dismay.
19 LORD HUTTON: Did he say, Mrs Kelly, why he thought his name
20 might or would become public?
21 A. Yes. Because the MoD had revealed that a source had
22 made itself known, he, in his own mind, said that he
23 knew from that point that the press would soon put two
24 and two together. We have an amazing press in this
25 country who it does not take them long to find out
1 details of this sort and he is well known of course in
2 his field, so that would have been another easy job for
4 MR DINGEMANS: And did you have any further discussion that
5 Tuesday evening about this matter?
6 A. No, we did not.
7 Q. On the 9th July, do you know where he was?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did he go to London?
10 A. Yes, he was supposed to be going to London so I was
11 quite surprised when he said he was going to work in the
12 garden all day. Again he got on to his vegetable patch
13 and was working in a rather lacklustre way that
14 particular day but he did receive and make some phone
15 calls as well.
16 Q. Did you have any visitors that day?
17 A. Yes, we did in the evening.
18 Q. What time did you have a visitor?
19 A. Not absolutely certain. It was something like 7.30 or
20 something like that.
21 Q. Who was that visitor?
22 A. It turned out to be Nick Rufford.
23 Q. Where was Dr Kelly?
24 A. We had both been sitting out having our coffee in the
25 garden after dinner that evening. I was watering the
1 plants and David went to put some tools away he had been
2 using during the day which involved him going into the
3 yard which lay between our house and the main road
5 Q. And were you aware that anyone else was there?
6 A. I suddenly looked up and there was David talking to
7 somebody. I had not got my glasses on so I moved
8 a little bit closer with the hosepipe to see who it was
9 and I recognised it as Nick Rufford. Nick had been to
10 our house before but only by arrangement, he never just
11 turned up before this. No journalist just turned up
12 before this, so I was extremely alarmed about that.
13 Q. Do you know what was said between Mr Rufford and
14 Dr Kelly?
15 A. To be absolutely fair I am not sure now what I heard.
16 David confirmed what I thought I had heard afterwards.
17 I heard him say -- I heard Nick say, I think,
18 "Rupert Murdoch" and I heard David say, "Please leave
19 now". The conversation only took place over about four
20 or five minutes maximum.
21 Q. And did you speak with Dr Kelly after the conversation?
22 A. Yes, I did. He came over to me and said that Nick had
23 said that Murdoch had offered hotel accommodation for
24 both of us away from the media spotlight in return for
25 an article by David. He, David, was to be named that
1 night and that the press were on their way in droves.
2 That was the language David used, I am not sure Nick
3 used that. He also added -- he was very upset and his
4 voice had a break in it at this stage. He got the
5 impression from Nick that the gloves were off now, that
6 Nick would use David's name in any article that he wrote
7 and he was extremely upset.
8 Q. Had you spoken with Dr Kelly at all during the day about
9 his reaction to the news the night before?
10 A. Yes, I had. He said several times over coffee, over
11 lunch, over afternoon tea that he felt totally let down
12 and betrayed. It seemed to me that this was all part of
13 what might have happened anyway because it seemed to
14 have been a very loose arrangement with the MoD, they
15 did not seem to take a lot of account of his time.
16 There was a lot of wasting of his time.
17 I just felt that this must have been very
18 frustrating for him. David often said: they are not
19 using me properly. He felt that the MoD were not quite
20 sure how to use his expertise at times, although I have
21 later seen his manager's reports on his staff appraisals
22 where he obviously did warrant his or respect his
23 expertise. But that is not the impression that I got.
24 Q. You say, I think, that he had felt totally let down and
25 betrayed. Who did he say that of?
1 A. He did not say in so many terms but I believed he meant
2 the MoD because they were the ones that had effectively
3 let his name be known in the public domain.
4 Q. And did you get the impression that he was happy or
5 unhappy that this press statement had been made?
6 A. Well, he did not know about it until after it had
7 happened. So he was -- I think initially he had been
8 led to believe that it would not go into the public
9 domain. He had received assurances and that is why he
10 was so very upset about it.
11 Q. What, he did not know that the press statement saying an
12 unnamed source had come forward would be made?
13 A. Not until after the event.
14 LORD HUTTON: Did he say from whom he had received
15 assurances Mrs Kelly?
16 A. From his line manager, from all their seniors and from
17 the people he had been interviewed by.
18 MR DINGEMANS: And his reaction on hearing the news, you
19 said he had seemed slightly reluctant to watch the news
20 that night.
21 A. Yes, indeed.
22 Q. Was that because he had seen an earlier news, do you
23 think, or because he knew something might be coming up?
24 A. I think it was probably trepidation that this was the
25 moment. He was not quite sure when it would actually
1 happen but since Nick had come it was going to be a big
2 problem. He knew that.
3 Q. Right. You also said that he had the impression he was
4 not being used properly; by whom? Who was not using him
6 A. The MoD, yes. He never said that about the Foreign
7 Office when he worked there or for UNSCOM in those days
9 Q. And in what sense did he feel he was not being used
11 A. Well, he often found that he was doing perhaps slightly
12 lower order jobs than he might be doing. He was filling
13 his time giving briefings, giving speeches, key note
14 speeches and others when perhaps he might have been more
15 involved in perhaps higher level policy making. There
16 was a letter I came up with where it was suggested that
17 David should be used in policy making rather more than
18 he was being.
19 Q. Going back to Mr Rufford, did David speak to you after
20 he had spoken to Mr Rufford?
21 A. Yes, he did. He came across and told me what Nick had
23 Q. He mentioned this proposed deal; is that right?
24 A. That is right. That is right.
25 Q. And what had been Dr Kelly's reaction to that?
1 A. Extremely upset at two levels. One that he was being --
2 you know, the press were on their way in droves, as Nick
3 had put it, and also that his friendship with Nick --
4 because he always used to work so hard, because he was
5 a workaholic to all intents, most of his friendships, in
6 fact his close friendships were all with people he
7 worked with on a regular basis, so if he gave a regular
8 briefing to someone, very often it would become not
9 a close friendship but a friendship nevertheless. He
10 felt that friendship was now at an end.
11 Q. Having heard that the press were on their way in droves,
12 what did you do?
13 A. We hovered a bit. I said I knew a house that was
14 available to us, if we needed it, down in the south-west
15 of England, and he did not pick up on that initially.
16 Q. Did you remind him of that?
17 A. Yes, I did. The phone rang inside the house and he went
18 in to answer it, came out and he said: I think we will
19 be needing that house after all. The MoD press office
20 have just rung to say we ought to leave the house and
21 quickly so that we would not be followed by the press.
22 Q. So the phone call was from the Ministry of Defence?
23 A. It was the Ministry of Defence press office.
24 Q. And they said you ought to leave?
25 A. Yes. Whether he had offered anything else in the
1 interim I do not know, that was never mentioned.
2 Q. Right. But you decided to go down to this place that
3 you knew --
4 A. Indeed. We immediately went into the house and packed
5 and within about 10 minutes we had left the house.
6 Q. Had you done any prepacking?
7 A. No, no, no.
8 Q. Where did you drive to?
9 A. We headed along the road towards the M4 and got to --
10 about 9.30, 9.45 we got as far as Weston-Super-Mare and
11 decided to pull in at a hotel there for the night.
12 Q. Were any telephone calls made on the way down?
13 A. Yes. He was driving, very, very tense and I was trying
14 to persuade him not to take or make any calls while we
15 were actually driving. So before we got on to M4, we
16 pulled over and tried to get hold of his line manager
17 Bryan Wells. I cannot remember at that time exactly
18 when he did make contact with Bryan, it may have been
19 rather later. It did take some time to get hold of him
20 but he did make contact with someone called Kate at the
21 MoD press office.
22 Q. Do you know what he spoke about to Kate?
23 A. No, he was -- I think he used a phrase like "cut and
24 run". David would never use that phrase in normal
25 terms. He was obviously exceedingly upset, we were both
1 were, very anxious, very stressed.
2 Q. How did he seem at this stage, his appearance?
3 A. Very taut. His whole demeanour was very tight. I was
4 extremely worried because he was insisting on driving.
5 I asked if I could drive, he would not let me. He was
6 very, very tired and so was I by this time.
7 Q. Do you know if he spoke to Dr Wells at all that night?
8 A. I think he did as we were driving along the M4.
9 Q. What was said?
10 A. Only that we had left home and that we were heading
11 towards the south-west of England and was this okay
12 because it was going further away from London, and he
13 got the assurance that for the time being that was fine.
14 Q. Which town did you drive to?
15 A. Weston-Super-Mare.
16 Q. You stayed --
17 A. We stayed overnight. We had a rather sleepless night
18 but we stayed overnight there en route to Cornwall.
19 Q. You were staying in a hotel?
20 A. We were.
21 Q. You had breakfast there the next morning?
22 A. We did, in the main dining room. We had asked for
23 The Times to be delivered. We just read it as we
24 finished our breakfast. We just read a couple of
25 articles that were about David.
1 Q. What were the articles about David saying?
2 A. The first one if I remember correctly -- I am sure
3 I do -- was written by Nick Rufford giving a brief
4 outline of his contact with David, naming him in his
5 article. Then there was another article inside with
6 a photograph of David and a run down of his career given
7 I presume by an MoD source naming him as a middle
8 ranking official.
9 Q. How did Dr Kelly seem about that?
10 A. Well, there was several references to his lowly status.
11 I do not know whether it was more my reaction or his but
12 he was rather knocked back by that.
13 Q. Having read the paper and had breakfast -- did he manage
14 to eat anything?
15 A. He did a little, yes.
16 Q. Did you set off anywhere?
17 A. Yes, we did. He made a few calls on his mobile in the
18 garden of the hotel.
19 Q. Do you know who he was calling?
20 A. He was calling MoD, but I do not know who he spoke to.
21 Q. Do you know what was said? Did he report back?
22 A. No, he did not. He just said I was okay to continue
23 down towards Cornwall.
24 Q. You did the packing?
25 A. I did my packing. He had already more or less done his
2 Q. There obviously was not that much to pack anyway?
3 A. No, there was not. He had a briefcase and we each had
4 a small suitcase each.
5 Q. You set off down to Cornwall I think?
6 A. We did, yes.
7 Q. What time did you leave the hotel?
8 A. We left the hotel about 8.30, 8.45, that sort of time.
9 Q. What time did you get down to the place you were driving
10 to in Cornwall?
11 A. That was about noon or just after.
12 Q. How had he seemed on the journey?
13 A. Not quite as tense as the night before but still very
14 tense. I was trying to say to him how nice Cornwall
15 was, we could visit places like the Eden Project and
16 Lost Gardens of Heligan, and so on, which I had visited
17 several times before, so I was trying to make
18 conversation to relax him and try and turn this in some
19 way into a holiday. We had not had holidays together
20 for so long that I was trying to make this a kind of
21 positive experience for him.
22 Q. Did you have lunch after you arrived in Cornwall?
23 A. We did, but I think he then became more upset at that
24 stage and very tense. I could not comfort him. He
25 seemed to withdraw into himself completely. And
1 I decided that the best I could do, and I made a policy
2 thing here then that I would keep him properly fed, good
3 food, attractive food and then keep him occupied as
4 pleasantly as possible. So although he was less
5 stressed in one sense, he was more upset by now.
6 Q. Did he talk to you at all about his treatment at this
8 A. No, not at this stage. We both had a meal and then lay
9 down for a little while before going out into the local
10 village for a walk.
11 Q. And after your walk, did he speak to anyone that day?
12 A. Yes. There were several calls made. Certainly he had
13 spoken to Olivia, or rather Olivia Bosch had phoned his
14 mobile just as we were looking over the harbour, which
15 I hoped would be a positive experience, looking over the
16 harbour, but in fact she was telling him about the press
17 coverage and that did seem to upset him more.
18 Q. Olivia Bosch works with an UNSCOM organisation?
19 A. That is right, and I think for IISS, the International
20 Institute for Strategic Studies.
21 Q. How did Dr Kelly take this further news about the press
23 A. He was upset. He did not like his name being in the
24 public domain. He did not like being -- becoming the
1 Q. That is Thursday 10th July?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You stayed down in Cornwall that night?
4 A. We stayed down in Cornwall that night.
5 Q. What were you doing on the Friday?
6 A. On the Friday we decided to go to the Lost Gardens of
7 Heligan. It was only a short drive so we thought that
8 would be apt after the long day or two before.
9 Q. That is what, some gardens you can walk around?
10 A. That is right, yes.
11 Q. And did you have lunch there?
12 A. I am not sure whether we did or not. No, I think we
13 went back home -- we spent a long morning there during
14 which he had taken a call from several people from MoD
15 explaining about the Foreign Affairs Committee on the
16 Tuesday and an Intelligence Committee the following
18 Q. Do you know who the calls were from?
19 A. Certainly one was from Bryan Wells. I am not sure if it
20 was Bryan who told him that the former Foreign Affairs
21 Committee would be televised.
22 Q. How did Dr Kelly take that news?
23 A. He was ballistic. He just did not like that idea at
24 all. He felt it -- he did not say this in so many words
25 but he felt it would be a kind of continuation of a kind
1 of reprimand into the public domain. That was not going
2 to be very comfortable for him.
3 Q. And did he mention about the ISC, the other Committee?
4 A. He was less worried about that one, less worried about
6 Q. How was he after receiving this news? You say his
7 immediate reaction?
8 A. He was really upset. I had hoped the morning would be
9 positive and pleasurable for him. He did not see the
10 gardens at all. He was in a world of his own. He was
11 really quite stressed, very strained, and conversation
12 was extremely difficult.
13 Q. Did you go on any other walks that day?
14 A. We went home for lunch and then went down towards the
15 village again. I tried to keep him busy and then we
16 just relaxed during the evening. We took some calls
17 from the family again.
18 Q. And his mood generally at that stage?
19 A. Very unhappy. Very unhappy. He had in fact --
20 I remember him speaking -- I should have mentioned this
21 before -- he had made an arrangement to go to London on
22 the Monday to prepare. He was worried about whether he
23 would have to cope with briefings from the MoD on top of
24 his thoughts and feelings that he had already got.
25 Q. Do you know when he had made those arrangements? We are
1 on Friday 11th at the moment.
2 A. That is right, about that day. Certainly the
3 televising, he did not know about that before Friday
4 11th July.
5 Q. Coming on to Saturday, are you still down in Cornwall?
6 A. We are indeed. We set off to the Eden Project.
7 Q. What is that?
8 A. It is a huge quarry which has some biospheres in it with
9 tropical and warm temperate plantings within. It is
10 a huge project down there and he had never seen it.
11 Q. Did he enjoy seeing it?
12 A. No. Although it was a lovely World Heritage site, he
13 seemed very grim, very unhappy, extremely tense, but
14 accepting the process he was going through. He knew he
15 would have to go forward the following week. I was
16 trying to relax him. He was eating, he was drinking
17 soft drinks but it was a very grim time for both of us.
18 I have never, in all the Russian visits and all the
19 difficulties he had in Iraq, where he had lots of
20 discomforts, lots of horrors, guns pointing at him,
21 munitions left lying around, I had never known him to be
22 as unhappy as he was then.
23 Q. His unhappiness you could feel?
24 A. It was tangible.
25 Q. You could see it as well?
1 A. Absolutely, palpable.
2 Q. What else do you do on the Saturday?
3 A. Somehow we got through the day. I am not terribly sure
4 what we did now. We certainly went back home. We
5 wandered along the beach at some stage. That was not
6 easy for him. It was just a nightmare. That is all
7 I can describe it as.
8 Q. Did he at this stage discuss anything about the Ministry
9 of Defence?
10 A. No, but there did not seem to be anything in the way of
11 support. I was surprised nobody rang him and said:
12 look, you know, why does not somebody come down to talk
13 to you? And that had not happened.
14 Q. Right. 13th July is a Sunday?
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. Do you stay in Cornwall?
17 A. I stayed in Cornwall. David wanted to set off early.
18 I tried to delay him. He was extremely tense. The MoD
19 had offered, by now, to put him up at a hotel in
20 Horse Guards but we all thought, especially our daughter
21 Rachel, he would be more comfortable with her. So he
22 set off about 11.30. Before that we walked down into
23 Mevagissey and he insisted on buying a Sunday Times to
24 see whether Nick Rufford had in fact written anything
25 further, and Nick had indeed written something
1 further --
2 Q. What was Dr Kelly's reaction to that?
3 A. The article gave the impression that Nick had had a full
4 blown interview with David at our home in Oxfordshire.
5 That was not the case. And he said something like:
6 Thanks Nick, the MoD will think I have been talking to
7 the press after I expressly said that I would not, and
8 that was in no way an interview that he gave. But Nick
9 gave the impression that it was.
10 Q. So that article he read, did he read anything else in
11 the papers that day?
12 A. Yes, and it did not help. There were other comments
13 about his junior status, about -- it was just a total
14 belittling in some ways. But the thing he was worried
15 about was the Nick Rufford article.
16 Q. He was worried about the Nick Rufford article?
17 A. He was. He was angry and upset. He almost immediately
18 tried to get hold of Bryan Wells. He could not get him
19 straight away, but Bryan rang him later, which is why he
20 did not leave until about 11.30. He told Bryan how he
21 was feeling, that he really was upset and he did not
22 think it was fair that this article was presenting it as
23 a full blown interview.
24 Q. What did he think of the belittling of his status as you
25 put it?
1 A. He was in dismay. He did not say too much about it. It
2 affected me perhaps more than him at that stage. He
3 hated that. It was not fair. He had been working
4 extremely hard, working his socks off for years.
5 I think he must have felt it was unfair. He was so
6 stressed by now that the belittling hit him perhaps
7 rather later than at this stage.
8 Q. You told us he set off at 11.30. Did he go by train or
9 by car?
10 A. No, he drove by car. I was worried about this. I asked
11 him to drive extremely carefully and to take his time
12 and he got to Rachel's house, I do not know, about
13 5 o'clock I think. He did ring me and he sounded bone
14 weary. My heart went out to him. He really was
15 suffering at this stage.
16 Q. He rang you after he had arrived at Rachel's house?
17 A. He did, to say he had arrived. I had asked him to do
19 Q. Was anything else said on that evening on the telephone?
20 A. Not between me and David. He really was very, very
21 tired. I spoke to Rachel, she said he is fine, he is
22 fine. She was trying to buck me up, I think. They had
23 a meal together and he went to bed, I think it was
24 early. He did not take a number of other calls.
25 I think Sarah, his sister, had phoned and he talked to
1 various other people, but not to me again that evening.
2 Q. On 14th July, the Monday, we know he goes down to London
3 and has a briefing in the afternoon.
4 A. That is right. That is right.
5 Q. Did you speak to him at all on the Monday?
6 A. Yes, I did. After he had returned to Rachel's he rang
7 me to say that the day had not been too tormenting. He
8 was not worried about what had gone on by that day.
9 I asked if he was being supported by the MoD and he
10 said: I suppose so, yes. He always previously said yes
11 when I asked this question on several occasions before,
12 so he was a little bit less certain, I felt.
13 I was a bit worried about the lack of support or the
14 lack of apparent support. He was not an easy man to
15 support in some ways, he would always try to give the
16 impression that he was okay, and I think his immediate
17 line manager was a much younger man than him and he
18 would have tried, as he did with us, to protect him from
19 his own feelings. He tried to keep his feelings to
21 Q. Was there any other conversation on 14th July, the
22 Monday? Did you talk about the Foreign Affairs
23 Committee the next day?
24 A. He said he was very, very upset about that and I think
25 it was on this day that he said that somebody had told
1 him over the phone while we were down in Cornwall that
2 Jack Straw, who he had supported a few weeks earlier at
3 the Foreign Affairs Committee --
4 Q. I think that was some time in September 2002.
5 A. Right, yes. He had gone through the Foreign Affairs
6 Committee, so he knew it could be quite a tough range of
7 interviews effectively there, and someone had said to
8 him while we were in Cornwall: Jack Straw had said he
9 was upset at the technical support at that Committee
10 meeting, he had been accompanied by somebody so junior.
11 Q. How had Dr Kelly taken that?
12 A. He laughed. It was kind of a hysterical laugh in a way.
13 He was deeply, deeply hurt.
14 Q. Did he talk about his work that evening?
15 A. No, not really, except to say he had been working on
16 biological weapons at a very high level and here he was
17 being treated rather like a fly, really, I think was the
18 phrase he used.
19 Q. What was the general attitude to his work? Did he
20 believe he could make a difference?
21 A. He was quite modest about his work. He never boasted.
22 In our many years together he was not a boasting man, he
23 was a very shy, retiring guy and he just felt he could
24 make a small difference. At an international level that
25 really was quite enough for him. He felt that was
1 a good place to be.
2 Q. 15th July we know he goes off to the Foreign Affairs
4 A. That is right.
5 Q. Did you speak to him at all that day?
6 A. Later on. This was our 36th wedding anniversary so
7 I was constantly thinking of him all day. He rang that
8 evening and said it had been a total nightmare because
9 the times and dates had been switched and then switched
10 again and there had been a bomb scare, I think,
11 somewhere near the Houses of Parliament so it was
12 difficult for the car to drive him up and he had had to
13 run the gauntlet of the press. Certainly from the
14 television pictures I saw later he really did look very
15 stressed, I could see that.
16 Q. You have seen the television pictures?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You know him better than anyone. His appearance on
19 those pictures?
20 A. He looked very uncomfortable, very hot, very stressed.
21 Q. What did he say to you about the Foreign Affairs
22 Committee and how it had actually gone?
23 A. Very little. He felt that he had not done good justice
24 to himself. He felt that they had been -- I think it
25 was Andrew Mackinlay, he misunderstood it initially and
1 felt it was an insult, the comment about "you are chaff"
2 and the "fall guy". He was deeply offended about that
3 at the time. He did ask Bryan Wells later whether it
4 was intended as an insult because he could not believe
5 it. Bryan Wells said: certainly not, the first part was
6 a military term. But David -- that had upset him.
7 Q. And was there any other discussion about any other
8 Committees that he was going back to? You said there
9 had been some change in times?
10 A. That is right. He had said then that the next Committee
11 was going to be held the next day, though there had been
12 a possibility they were going to be both held on that
13 Tuesday. But he had said -- his final comment about the
14 Foreign Affairs Committee was that he just did not want
15 to know. He just -- he was in a nightmare position.
16 Q. He did not want to know or you did not want to know?
17 A. He said: I did not want to know. And that was something
18 he would say very infrequently but it just meant he
19 wanted to put that to one side and move on.
20 Q. And where does he spend the night on 15th July?
21 A. At my daughter Rachel's.
22 Q. So he is still at Rachel's?
23 A. Still at Rachel's.
24 Q. 16th July we know he goes off to the ISC.
25 A. That is right.
1 Q. Do you speak to him at all on that day?
2 A. Later on I meet up with him. I spend the day returning
3 from Cornwall by train, he having taken the car. I met
4 up with him, our daughter and her fiance at about 7.45.
5 Q. That is at Rachel's house?
6 A. That is at Rachel's house.
7 Q. Did you have anything to eat?
8 A. Yes, we had a meal together.
9 Q. How was he then?
10 A. He looked totally exhausted. He was able to converse
11 a little, but it was very, very strained. I felt he was
12 very, very tired. He was sort of used up. He said
13 that -- I asked him about the intelligence -- the ISC
14 Committee that day but he only said it had gone all
15 right. And that was not a phrase he would normally use.
16 He was obviously very stressed.
17 Q. And did you talk, at that stage, about the Foreign
18 Affairs Committee as well?
19 A. No, no. He was very withdrawn, very tired. I did not
20 seek to go over old ground at this stage.
21 Q. And did you talk about future plans, for example going
22 off to Iraq?
23 A. No, I had made the assumption that he would be going and
24 so did he at some point but there was no discussion
25 about that on this day.
1 Q. And after supper at Rachel's house, where did you go?
2 A. We then made our way home. He drove. Again he insisted
3 on driving home. He did not speak at all during that
4 journey. He was very tense and very, very tired.
5 Q. How long does the journey take from Rachel's place to
6 your home?
7 A. About 20 minutes.
8 Q. What happened when you got back home?
9 A. There was a great deal of post which he would normally
10 pick up and take into his study. He did not do that,
11 but he did go into his study to download e-mails so he
12 switched on his computer, downloaded e-mails. I am not
13 sure whether he actually answered any or deleted any.
14 He shortly went to bed. We were both very, very tired.
15 So within about half an hour or so he went off to bed.
16 Q. 17th July is a Thursday. What time did you get up that
18 A. About half past 8. It is rather later than normal. We
19 were both tired.
20 Q. How did he seem?
21 A. Tired, subdued, but not depressed. I have no idea. He
22 had never seemed depressed in all of this, but he was
23 very tired and very subdued.
24 Q. Did he have any work to do that day?
25 A. He said he had a report to write for the MoD. This is
1 the one that somebody on the Foreign Affairs Committee
2 referred to as his "homework" I think.
3 Q. Some Parliamentary Questions that were tabled?
4 A. That is right.
5 Q. How did he seem about that?
6 A. He just got on with it, basically.
7 Q. What time did he start work?
8 A. Probably about 9 o'clock, quarter to 9.
9 Q. Where physically did he work in the house?
10 A. In his study. It was a downstairs room to the left of
11 the front door, one side of the dining room.
12 Q. And what equipment did he have in the study?
13 A. He had a range of computers, laptops and his own
14 desk-top computer.
15 Q. So he had a desk-top with a stack and a --
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. -- and a printer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how many laptops did he have?
20 A. I do not know. I heard later there were seven. He
21 would often be given a laptop purely for one individual
22 discussion at the United Nations. If he was going to
23 interrogate somebody, for instance, they would give him
24 a laptop in order for that to go just on its own.
25 Q. He had a telephone in the study, did he?
1 A. Yes. He had a business line in there. The house line
2 also went in there and he had a mobile too.
3 Q. He had a mobile as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He went into his study I think you told us about
6 9 o'clock?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. Did he come out of his study at all?
9 A. He came out for coffee. We had a quick word.
10 Q. What time was that?
11 A. That would be about 11 I think, something of that order.
12 Q. Do you know whether he made any telephone calls that
14 A. Yes, he was certainly on the phone quite a bit I think,
15 not as much --
16 Q. Could you hear that?
17 A. Yes, I could hear the phone ringing from time to time,
18 but he picked it up. We did not actually sit together
19 to have coffee then and we did not really talk at that
21 Q. So after his coffee at 11 o'clock he went back to carry
23 A. He went back to carry on. I left the house for a few
24 minutes to meet somebody and pick up some photographs.
25 I came back, went into his study to try and lighten the
1 atmosphere a bit by showing him some photographs and
2 some other data I had got for the History Society. He
3 smiled, stood up and then said he had not quite
4 finished. But a few minutes later he went to sit in the
5 sitting room all by himself without saying anything,
6 which was quite unusual for him, but he went and sat in
7 the sitting room.
8 Q. And what time had you gone out to get the photographs?
9 A. Not absolutely certain, it was something like quarter to
10 12, I think.
11 Q. So if you were 10 minutes doing that, you must have been
12 back just shortly before 12, is that right?
13 A. I was a bit longer than that. I was about half an hour.
14 Q. So about a quarter past 12. When was he sitting in the
15 sitting room?
16 A. From about 12.30 I would think.
17 Q. Did he say anything?
18 A. No, he just sat and he looked really very tired. By
19 this time I had started with a huge headache and begun
20 to feel sick. In fact I was physically sick several
21 times at this stage because he looked so desperate.
22 Q. Did he have any lunch?
23 A. Yes, he did. I said to him -- he did not want any but
24 he did have some lunch. I made some sandwiches and he
25 had a glass of water. We sat together at the table
1 opposite each other. I tried to make conversation.
2 I was feeling pretty wretched, so was he. He looked
3 distracted and dejected.
4 Q. How would you describe him at this time?
5 A. Oh, I just thought he had a broken heart. He really was
6 very, very -- he had shrunk into himself. He looked as
7 though he had shrunk, but I had no idea at that stage of
8 what he might do later, absolutely no idea at all.
9 Q. And that was how he was looking and seeming to you. Did
10 you talk much at lunch?
11 A. No, no. He could not put two sentences together. He
12 could not talk at all.
13 Q. You said, I think, you were feeling unwell that day?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. What did you do?
16 A. I went to go and have a lie down after lunch, which is
17 something I quite often did just to cope with my
18 arthritis. I said to him, "What are you going to do?"
19 He said, "I will probably go for my walk".
20 Q. I think you told us you heard the phone ringing during
21 the day. Had you seen his reaction to any phone calls
22 during the day?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. You had only seen his reaction when he had gone into the
25 sitting room?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. And then at lunchtime?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. What time do you think you went upstairs, so far as you
5 can remember?
6 A. It would be about half past 1, quarter to 2 perhaps.
7 Q. Where was he at that time?
8 A. He went into his study. Then shortly after I had laid
9 down he came to ask me if I was okay. I said: yes,
10 I will be fine. And then he went to change into his
11 jeans. He would be around the house in a tracksuit or
12 tracksuit bottoms during the day. So he went to change
13 and put on his shoes. Then I assumed he had left the
15 Q. Because he was going for a walk?
16 A. That is right. He had intended to go for this regular
17 walk of his. He had a bad back so that was the strategy
18 for that.
19 Q. And did he, in fact, go straight off for his walk?
20 A. Well, the phone rang a little bit later on and I assumed
21 he had left so I suddenly realised I had not got
22 a cordless phone and I thought it might be an important
23 call for him, perhaps from the MoD. So I went
24 downstairs to find the telephone in the dining room. By
25 this time the ringing had stopped and I was aware of
1 David talking quietly on a phone. I said something
2 like: I thought you had gone out for a walk. He did not
3 respond of course because he was talking on the phone.
4 Q. Where was he at this time?
5 A. In his study.
6 Q. Do you know what time this was?
7 A. Not exactly, no. Getting on for 3, I would think.
8 Q. Do you know who the caller was?
9 A. I assumed it was the MoD, I am not sure.
10 Q. And did Dr Kelly go out for his walk?
11 A. Well, the phone rang again at about 3.20, after which --
12 it was a call for me -- a return call for me, and
13 I could not settle in bed so I got up at that stage and
14 I was aware that definitely David had left by this time.
15 Q. So he had gone?
16 A. He had gone by 3.20.
17 Q. So between 3 and 3.20 he had gone for a walk?
18 A. That is right, yes.
19 Q. And what were you doing for the rest of the day?
20 A. I was still feeling extremely ill so I went to sit in
21 the sitting room. I could not settle, I put the TV on,
22 which is unheard of for me at that time of the day.
23 There were a few callers at the front door. I answered
24 those and had a short chat with each of them. Then
25 I began to get rather worried because normally if David
1 was going for a longer walk, he would say. It was
2 a kind of family tradition, if you were going for
3 a longer walk you would say where you were going and
4 what time you would be back.
5 Q. He had not said?
6 A. He had not said that. He just said: I am going for my
8 Q. How long would a normal walk take?
9 A. About 15 minutes, depending if he met somebody, perhaps
10 20 minutes, 25 minutes.
11 Q. What time did you start to become concerned?
12 A. Probably late afternoon. Rachel rang, my daughter rang
13 to say: do not worry, he has probably gone out to have
14 a good think. Do not worry about it, he will be fine.
15 She had planned to come over that evening. She made
16 a decision definitely to come over. She arrived -- I am
17 not quite sure what time she arrived, half five,
18 six o'clock, I think. She went out. She said: I will
19 go and walk up and meet Dad. She walked up one of the
20 normal footpaths he would have taken -- in fact it was
21 the footpath he would have taken. She came back about
22 half an hour or so later.
23 Q. What time was this?
24 A. This must have been about 6.30 perhaps by now. I am not
25 sure of the times. I was in a terrible state myself by
1 this time trying not to think awful things and trying to
2 take each moment as it came.
3 Q. And Rachel gets back about 6.30.
4 A. Something like that.
5 Q. What does she say?
6 A. Then the phone rings and it is Sian, one of our other
7 daughters. She immediately says: I am coming over. So
8 she and her partner Richard set out by car from their
9 home near Fordingbridge to drive the distance. They
10 then spent the rest of the evening driving up and down
11 lanes, looking at churches, bus shelters, and so on,
12 looking for her father.
13 Q. What time did Sian and Richard arrive?
14 A. After 11 I believe.
15 Q. They had not seen Dr Kelly?
16 A. They had not seen him. Obviously it was very dark by
18 Q. What was decided to be done?
19 A. Well, we had delayed calling the police because we
20 thought we might make matters worse if David had
21 returned when we started to search. I felt he was
22 already in a difficult enough situation. So we put off
23 calling the police until about 20 to 12 at night.
24 Q. And who called the police?
25 A. I think it was Sian, I am not sure. It may have been
2 Q. The police are called. Do they turn up?
3 A. They turn up. Three of them come with a missing persons
4 form to fill in. I explained the situation that David
5 had been in and it seemed immediately to go up to
6 Chief Constable level.
7 Q. What time did the police arrive? The call I think you
8 told us was about 11.
9 A. Yes. Within 15 minutes they were there.
10 Q. Three turned up?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then it is referred up as far as you are aware?
13 A. Yes, it is referred up and the search begins. The
14 Thames Valley helicopter had gone off duty by that time
15 so they had to wait for the Benson helicopter to come
17 Q. That is RAF Benson, is it?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. So the helicopter was involved in searching?
20 A. Indeed it was, and tracker dogs too, I believe.
21 Q. Could you hear the helicopter?
22 A. Yes, it came and the police switched on their blue light
23 on their vehicles so it could pinpoint the position of
24 our house, the starting point for David's walk.
25 Q. What time did the helicopter start searching, do you
2 A. It must have been about 1 o'clock. I am not sure.
3 Q. How many police were there then?
4 A. Certainly the three were there. I think they may have
5 been joined by a couple more by this stage.
6 Q. Did you speak to the police at all during that night?
7 A. Yes, all night, all night. Then a vehicle arrived with
8 a large communication mast on it and parked in the road
9 and then during the early hours another mast, 45-foot
10 mast was put up in our garden.
11 Q. For police communications?
12 A. Yes, indeed. And a dog was put through our house. At
13 20 to 5 the following morning I was sitting on the lawn
14 in my dressing gown while the dog went through the
16 Q. Trying to --
17 A. Trying to establish that he was not there.
18 Q. Did you hear any other news?
19 A. Not initially, no. It was during the morning of the
20 Friday, I think, the 18th by now, that the police came
21 to inform us of David's death.
22 Q. We have heard about the circumstances of Dr Kelly's
23 death and the fact that a knife was used. Were you
24 shown the knife at all?
25 A. We were not shown the knife; we were shown a photocopy
1 of I presume the knife which we recognised as a knife he
2 had had for many years and kept in his drawer.
3 Q. It was a knife he had had what, from childhood?
4 A. From childhood I believe. I think probably from the
5 Boy Scouts.
6 Q. We have also heard that some co-proxamol was used.
7 A. Indeed.
8 Q. Do you take any medicine?
9 A. I do. I take co-proxamol for my arthritis.
10 Q. I think we are also going to hear that appears to be the
11 source of the co-proxamol that was used.
12 A. I had assumed that. I keep a small store in a kitchen
13 drawer and the rest in my bedside table.
14 Q. Is there anything else about the circumstances of
15 Dr Kelly's death that you can help his Lordship with?
16 A. No, except that he was totally devoted to his job. It
17 was rather muddling in the sense that he seemed to work
18 between lots of different places, but that suited his
19 style in a way, he liked to interact between lots of
20 different people. But, no, there is nothing else.
21 Q. I have just been asked to ask one thing. There was
22 a report in one of the newspapers yesterday that there
23 had been some rows; is there anything you would like to
24 say in relation to that?
25 A. Absolutely not. We did not row. If we had
1 a disagreement, we agreed to disagree. There was
2 absolutely no row whatsoever. I was in no physical
3 state anyway and neither was David. There was
4 absolutely no row.
5 Q. Finally, after Dr Kelly's death there were some reports
6 in the press about him being a Walter Mitty character.
7 What was your reaction to that?
8 A. I was devastated. That was totally the opposite. He
9 was a very modest, shy, retiring guy. I once saw him at
10 a meeting with the United Nations Association and his
11 body language was very sort of stiff. He was always
12 very courteous, very laid back if you like, but he kept
13 to his brief. He did not boast at all and he was very
14 factual and that is what he felt his job was. That is
15 what he tried always to be, to be factual.
16 Q. Is there anything else you would like to say?
17 A. Yes. Lord Hutton, on behalf of my family I would like
18 to thank you and your counsel for the dignified way in
19 which you are carrying out this Inquiry into my
20 husband's death. We would also like to acknowledge the
21 support our family have received from so many people all
22 over the country and elsewhere and, finally, may I take
23 this opportunity to ask the media to continue to respect
24 my family's privacy. We are a very private family.
25 Thank you.
1 LORD HUTTON: Mrs Kelly, thank you very much indeed. I am
2 most grateful for the very clear and very helpful way in
3 which you have given your evidence in circumstances
4 which I know, as does everyone, are very, very difficult
5 for you and your family. Thank you very much indeed.
6 A. Thank you, my Lord.
7 LORD HUTTON: I think this will be an appropriate time to
8 adjourn to give the stenographers a break for five
©Copyright 2003, The Hutton Inquiry (UK)
Following is the URL to the original story. The site may have removed or archived this story. URL:
Return to: UGA Baha'i Association's Home Page
Baha'i News Archives' Index
This page was designed by Sohayl Moshtael suggestions, and news submissions are welcome, and
The content and opinions expressed on this Web page do not necessarily reflect the views of nor are they endorsed by the
University of Georgia or the University System of Georgia.
Page last updated/revised 030904